Annie of the Known Turf blog has posted a stark and really moving account of eve teasing from a female victim's perspective: Streets, stories, strategies. A lot of things have been written about eve teasing, by both men and women. But this kind of intense, personal account has been absent for a long time in the mainstream media. I am not surprised that this has finally emerged in the blogosphere, rather than the mainstream media. See also: Blank Noise Project.
A very personal account is not the only thing which has been conspicuously missing from the mainstream debates and writings on eve-teasing. What is also missing is an honest, incisive look at the root cause. Most people simply take a superficial view: men are assholes; third-world men are uncouth pigs; it is simply their nature to do it; third-world cultures are backward and repressive and condone harassment of women.
When feminist types enter the debate, rather than helping, they distort the issue: It is all about power. Eve-teasing is yet another way for the chauvinistic males to exert their power over the women and suppress them. It might be about sex in a small way, but it is a distorted expression of the patriarichal society in a major way. See also: Eve Teasing, Rite of passage?
There may be some truth to the feminist view-point that eve-teasing is about a man showing-off his dominance over a woman. But that is only a partial truth. That is probably true of only a very tiny percentage of eve teasing incidents. As a guy who has participated in mild eve teasing (check my personal dirt), and who has witnessed his share of such incidents, I can tell you that 99% of eve teasing is not about power. Eve teasing is more a distorted and perverse sexual expression.
When a guy on the roadside whistles or passes a loud, lewd comment at a passing girl, he is not thinking of dominating over her or subduing her or feeling powerful. When a guy brushes by a girl or pokes an elbow into her when passing her on the pavement, or copes a feel on a crowded train/bus, he is not thinking of suppressing her or all of womanhood. The last thing the sneaky asshole is feeling is powerful! These guys are rather seizing the moment to have a fleeting sexual experience. And in a large number of cases, it is truly fleeting from the male perspective. The guy who whistled or passed a dirty comment most probably did not give the girl or his behavior much thought - neither before nor after the incident. There are very many times when I have seen guys stop whatever they were doing (bantering or playing a game) to tease a passing girl and then go right back to their original activity.
I am not trying to deny the seriousness of eve teasing by claiming that it is a fleeting thing from the male perspective. I can understand that for the girl, it is a deep and lingering hurt and humiliation. I know that eve teasing denies a full-fledged public life for most young women in India. So, I am making no excuses for the males. All I am saying is that most of the time, there is no complex psycho powerplay involved in these cases.
I feel that feminists get off on the power angle for three reasons:
- They have a tendency to look at everything through their feminist lens, and for them, the whole universe is about yang dominating and suppressing the yin, and taking away her rights.
- They feel that if we accept the sexual urges to be the motivation for eve teasing, then somehow the guy who did eve teasing escapes personal blame and responsibility. Since sexual urges are common for almost all of us, and it is an inherent part of our biology, the feminists think the teaser escapes being characterized as a demon. This is not acceptable to them. They would like the eve teasing and harassing males to be portrayed as abnormal, cruel, powerful demons.
- It is very hard for women to accept that the same sexual energy which motivates the passion of their tender lover, might also be at the core of an eve-teaser's or rapist's motivations. They want to believe that their lover's sexual motivation is clean and pure, and the eve-teaser's sexual motivation is dirty and obscene. They find it hard to logically separate the biological sexual motivation from the sexual action. If they had to accept that the motivation of the lover and the teaser are the same, then in their eyes, the actions would also be equally dirty and that would spoil their enjoyment of the lover's attentions.
I am not a woman, so I may very well be wrong here. But I have come to these conclusions after many debates with feminist-minded women.
I believe that giving too much importance to the power and patriarchy angle in eve teasing distorts us from having a clear view of the issue and its real root cause. This in turn, takes us farther away from any solution for the issue.
So, what might be the clearer view? I believe it is this: Most of the eve teasing incidents are distorted and deviant expressions / experiences of sexuality by men who cannot have a healthy sharing of sexuality with a particular girl or woman. In many cases, the man/men involved probably don't have a healthy sexual relationship with any woman at all. That is, they are mostly frustrated bachelors.
At this point, I have to make it clear that being "frustrated bachelors" does not in anyway condone the sexual crime, be it eve teasing or something more serious. Just because the motivation might be sexual, does not mean the guy(s) can escape blame or responsibility or punishment.
I also accept that there may be exceptional cases where the motivation is something more or other than the sexual urge. There are no doubt cases where the guys are sadists, cruel chauvinists, real demons. None of what I write above or below is about such guys.
Why is the bachelor frustrated?
Most Indians know the answer to this question. India is still a country where majority of the marriages are arranged, and most youngsters don't date. Individuals, especially women, do not choose their own mates - they merely say aye or nay to the person chosen by their families. A male-female pair who are not married or otherwise related, are frowned upon, disapproved, harassed (even by the police) if they are seen together in public. Romantic couples have always found ways around these restrictions, but the public disapproval is a very real fact even today. It is changing, especially in urban areas, but not fast enough. Compared to the total number of unmarried young people in India, the number of young people who are actually romantically involved with someone, is a very small minority. Romantic pairing among unmarried people is still uncommon and premarital sex is even rarer.
The result: supposing that a boy becomes sexually active at around 12-13 years of age and gets married after 25 years of age, over a dozen years of the height of his sexual life are spent in enforced singledom, without a romantic partner. In addition to this, bombard the guy with overt and covert sexuality in all kinds of media, and every guy out there is a walking bomb of repressed sexual energy. I am actually surprised that the situation is not much worse than it is now. If animals were repressed like that for years after reaching their age of sexual maturity - or for that matter if American youth were - they would have torn apart their societies, not merely indulged in eve teasing.
This is the root cause of eve-teasing. It is merely an urge to express and experience sexuality in a society which actively and passively suppresses it. This is almost never frankly expressed or talked about in most articles or debates on the issue, which are usually from the female perspective. This is the truth from the male perspective.
If you are not convinced, look at Western societies. There is hardly a concept of public eve teasing in countries like the United States (although there is definitely behind-closed-doors sexual harassment everywhere). The reason for this is not strict law enforcement, although that certainly is a deterrant. The real reason is one of the following:
- Most young guys are too busy with their girlfriends to indulge in teasing or harassing strange women.
OR
- Most young guys are too busy wooing prospective girlfriends. They know that their chances of landing a girl are very bright if they exhibit good behavior. On the other hand, bad behavior, such as eve teasing, will reduce their chances to zero.
In India, most young guys don't have girlfriends. So, the first bullet above is not possible. As for the second bullet, because of the sexual and romantic repression among Indian youth and the conservative society, for most guys, the chances of landing a girlfriend is already close to zero even if they are well-behaved. So, there is no great reward for good behavior just as there is no great punishment for bad behavior. Meanwhile, their suppressed sexuality needs expression and experience... and it comes out as eve teasing.
If you still don't get it, let me put it more simply: If most young guys were sharing a healthy sexual relationship with their girlfriends, they wouldn't be teasing or feeling up strange women in public places. If there was a well-taught and well-understood code for pleasantly communicating their attraction and safely sharing their sexuality with uninhibited young women, guys wouldn't be indulging in unpleasant and unsafe expressions like eve teasing and harassment.
In Western countries like the US, if a guy feels attracted to a girl, there is a very definite social code and language he follows to express his intentions. Both the guy and the girl have the independence to safely share and experience their attraction, without any disapproval or danger. In India, such a social code and independence was missing in the past, and is just beginning to emerge now.
It is as simple as that!
PS: Incidentally, I arrived at my conclusions on this root cause of eve teasing in India, after I came to the US and compared the situation in the US with the situation in India. If I had not come out of India, I might not have had this insight. This is a classic example of the phenomenon I have mentioned in a previous post on NRI Nationalism: coming out of India gives us some better perspectives and insights into India's issues.
Personal Dirt: My Eve Teasing Experience
Yes, I have indulged in mild eve teasing during my college days. No, I am not proud of it. My past eve teasing acts consisted of a couple of occasions when I sat on the pavement on my college street with other friends and whistled or sang loudly at passing girls, who also studied in my college. Otherwise, most of my college days were spent in classes (I almost never missed classes) or being lost in my personal romantic story or watching the antics of my friends, which included eve teasing. And by the way, my friends' eve teasing also mostly consisted of whistling or passing comments. I have not seen them physically harass any girl. There, you have the dirt on me now!
Precis of the Root Cause for Eve Teasing
The root cause of eve teasing in India is that the sexually repressed young people don't have enough premarital romance in their lives.
Posts
Libran lover,
ReplyDeletethanks for this post. Since all women I know, ranging from my 65 year old cook to my 15 year old sister, get sexually harrassed in streets and public places, I would have to agree with you that most men when they sexually harrass women are not really THINKING about the INDIVIDUAL woman as such, but are instead merely looking to enjoy a sexual experience and give outlet to their urges.... you have identified the reason for eve-teasing in India to be the lack of an alternative, appropriate social code of expression of sexuality. This seems to be the reason why men make lewd comments at passing women, sing songs at passing women, whistle at women, make weird kissy-letchy noises at women, stare and undress women with their eyes, brush past women, rub themselves against women, grab women, feel up women...
all because there is no other appropriate social code for their sexual outlets.
If this seems to be the case, then WHY DONT WOMEN SEXAULLY HARRAS MEN IN PUBLIC PLACES AS WELL? If men have sexual needs, surely women must be experiencing them as well, otherwise the concept of hetrosexual lovers in a relationship would not exist. If men in India are forced to live in a socially restrictive environment that stigmatises romantic and sexual relationships between unmarried people, and are thus "forced" with no other alternative but to sexually harrass women in public spaces, how come Indian women don't sexually harrass strange/unknown men on the streets as well?
This is the reason why: Because sexaul harrasment is a crime, NOT based on a man's sexual urges that seek outlets in socially restrictive environment but about POWER.
In a MORE GENDER-EQUAL society (like the US, for instance) where sexual relations between unmarried people is an accepted social practice, incidents of eve-teasing are relatively less.
If the environment in India was more GENDER EQUAL but equally socially restrictive as regarding sexual relationships between unmarried people, WOMEN TOO WOULD BE ABLE TO SEXAULLY HARASS MEN IN ORDER TO GIVE RELEASE TO THEIR PENT-UP SEXUAL NEEDS.
Sexual harrasment is a crime that gets condoned because it is based on the existing POWER RELATIONS in a society. It is NOT based on the social practice of stigmatising sexual relations between unmarried men and women.
Think about it.
oof ya!
ReplyDeleteYour question is so basic, I can't believe that you are seriously asking it.
This is exactly what I mean when I say that many (NOT all) popular feminist views distort issues rather than shed some real light on them.
Your question in simplified form is this: Why don't women express their sexuality in the same way that men do?
Almost anybody with common sense knows the answer. But the common sense answer escapes you because your senses are probably clouded by feminist notions of male "POWER".
Now think about the answers to the following questions and you will have the answer to your question:
1. When a man and woman are equally in love with each other, do they express their love in same / similar ways? Don't they have their own separate / different ways of expressing their love? Is that because of power?
2. When a father and mother love a child equally, do they express their love in the same way? Or do the father and mother love the child in different ways? Do you think that is because the father wants to exercise his power over the child and the mother does not?
If you think that the answer to either of the above questions is "power", then your mind has been too far screwed up by feminist ideas. There is nothing I can say to help you see reason.
Further you said: Sexual harrasment is a crime that gets condoned...
There are no doubt lots of instances in the world where sexual harassment is condoned. However, eve teasing in India is not condoned anymore than petty theft is condoned. The criminals in both cases do the deed and escape. Nobody who does either deed - eve teasing or petty theft - is "condoned". Especially not because of any "power relations" between men and women.
You think that eve-teasing in the US is relatively less because it is a gender-equal society. The fact that lots of American women suffer from violence - both sexual and otherwise, indicates that the US is not as gender-equal as it appears to be. That being the case, the only reason I think eve-teasing is relatively less in the US is because people have other avenues of sexual expression. These other avenues may be good or bad. That is not my point. My point is merely that there are other ways.
Good day and good bye!
To be fair, libran, you haven't proposed an alternate outlet for the sexual repression you postulate for Indian people (including women) for females.
ReplyDeleteExcusing oof ya's point on the ground that men and women express lust/love differently only begins to hold if you can demostrate how women's sexual frustration (something that clearly follows from your original post) is diffused. Otherwise, due to basic logical structure, the idea that sexual frustration Causes eve-teasing/sexual harrassment is negated.
Hi LL
ReplyDeleteI have been thinking about this issue for a bit, and I do think I have to agree with you about a lot of points you've made.
I also agree that a lot of sexual harassment happens as an expression of power, but not necessarily in the case of eve-teasing.
A lot of eve-teasing is about 'copping a feel' i.e. a cheap substitute for sexual experience in the absence of a normal outlet for sex. I compliment you on having the nerve to reveal your 'personal dirt', I must admit that my experience is similar too.
I think it is a combination of two deadly factors: the lack of appropriate sexual outlets plus a patriarchal system which condones offenders.
India is a transitional society, and hopefully we'll be able to come up with a good solution for these issues.
I don't have a good explanation for the obvious question raised by the feminist: why don't women harass men in the same way?
ReplyDeleteMy only explanation is that the patriarchal society somehow condones men for letting their sexual urges out in this fashion while restricting females.
But I do agree with your fundamental idea, LL, that a lot of men who eve-tease in India are not thinking of suppressing women, but just to get a cheap feel.
It will take a more fundamental change in our social attitudes towards sexuality for this to change. It needs everyone to accept and understand their own sexuality and what it can make us do, and as a society to open up a lot more.
In the short term, however, the BNP-type awareness projects are great!
What about all the eve-teasers, sexual harrassers, that are married men? Many of them old grandfathers?
ReplyDeleteAre they not sexually satisfied with their wives?
Perhaps they see movies of sexually assertive women actively participating in sex on top or oral sex and their wives at home won't? (Or maybe they would if our typical "uncleji" indulged his wife in some yoni kissing?)
Why the hell do married men in India sexually harrass women in public?
Response to the anonymous comments: I am AMAZED that you girls (I presume you are girls) are seriously asking why women don't eve-tease men back the same way that men do. I should have explicitly answered this question when I responded (the second comment above) to oof ya!
ReplyDeleteYour question in simplified form is this: Why don't women express their sexuality in the same way that men do?
This is a no-brainer. Men and women inherently express their sexuality differently... except for some individual exceptions here and there. This is true not only of men and women, it is also true among animals. This is the inherent characteristic of the male and female genders. Males and females are like that by definition. There is no other special explanation to it.
Now, some of you think men and women behave this way because men are stronger or more powerful. This is not true. Even among human couples and animal species where the females are stronger, each gender has its own specific manner of expressing their sexuality and they mostly stick to that manner.
I hope this simple truth is clear to everyone.
Bideshi gori in India - All your questions are very simple, and you SHOULD have already known the answers... if only you gave the matter a little more thought.
ReplyDelete1. Simply being married is no guarantee of sexual satisfaction.
2. Married men in India DO NOT eve-tease anywhere near as much as unmarried men do. Even if they are not sexually satisfied, married men are too busy being... well, married men.
3. The married men who are guilty of other forms of sexual harassment (not eve teasing) do so for the same reasons that men all over the world indulge in sexual harassment, extramarital affairs, etc. And that reason is NOT that they want to go on some mental power trip by harassing weaker women!
Dear LL,
ReplyDeleteLet's not go into the 'power play' thing, becuase you know, the sarcasm with which you say it, has robbed that phrase of seriousness, so well, leaving 'power play' alone, you reason i.e. 'sexual repression', does ring true, but only to an extent. Please note, I am not saying that 'sexual repression' is not a reason, but it is just one of the other reasons.
I can't speak for other women or feminists, but the primary reason why I refuse to accept that as the root reason is becasue that would mean putting the entire blame on Indian society, and letting the doer go scott free, which is unfair. It is like saying, 'Look we can't help it, it is not our fault' and washing oneself off the responsibility of the act.
Given the fact that most indians are sexually repressed, why is it that only a part of them indulge in so-called 'eve-teasing? Because, there is not just one factor which determines this behaviour, but some more of them.
Which brings us to your answer to 'why don't women harass men in public places'. I classify the answer that 'women are different from men' as a pretty escapist one. Speaking for myself, somehow when I look at a sexy man on the streets, it never strikes me that I should harass him, in fact, it doesn't strike me that I should make him uncomfortable in any way by adam-teasing him, it just doesn't cross my mind...except if that guy has harmed me in any way. There are two reasons for this reaction, which i can think about, so there might be more:
1. From childhood, there are several things drilled into me,of living and letting others live, of right and wrong, of what shd be condoned and what should eb condemned, and it has stayed with me. So, upbringing matters.
2. I don't look at men as potential outlets of sexual repressions, but as human beings, and I respect them. These men, who eve-tease, don't respect women, they don't think that women are human beings.
3. To put it crudely, you can only take liberties with something that belongs to you, and never do I think that any man on the road belongs to me, so I can 'use' him, or rather, men are 'available'. These eve teasers really think that women are 'available'...dunno what makes them think so? I can hazard a guess that it is becasue of the second point, i.e. lack of respect, but I am not sure.
All right, reasons apart, just thought of commenting on one of your observations:
You wrote, in reply to Bideshi gori:
Married men in India DO NOT eve-tease anywhere near as much as unmarried men do
Now, where did you get that statistics?
The maximum time that my friends have found themselves being groped were in general compartment of trains filled with married, so-called family men. In fact, I think staring, commenting, whistling, singing are mostly done by unmarried guys, but when it comes to groping, 'real men' who have ample 'avenues' to vent their sexual repressions are not that far behind.
Aparna, thanks for your comment.
ReplyDeleteWhen I discuss the feminist view of power, I am not sarcastic. I am very serious. Don't let your perception of my typed words make you think otherwise.
You wrote: I refuse to accept that as the root reason is becasue that would mean putting the entire blame on Indian society, and letting the doer go scott free, which is unfair. It is like saying, 'Look we can't help it, it is not our fault' and washing oneself off the responsibility of the act...
Clearly, you missed the passage in my blog where I wrote: At this point, I have to make it clear that being "frustrated bachelors" does not in anyway condone the sexual crime, be it eve teasing or something more serious. Just because the motivation might be sexual, does not mean the guy(s) can escape blame or responsibility or punishment.
You said there are three reasons why women don't harass men:
1. Upbringing.
2. Not looking at others as merely sexual objects.
3. Not thinking that others are "available".
I don't think that eve teasers think their victims are "available" for them. In fact, men almost never eve tease women who are actually "available" to them. But that is beside the point. Did it occur to you that the three reasons you mentioned also apply to men who don't tease? Also, these are only reasons for why people don't eve tease. The main reason why people do tease has been mentioned in my blog.
But you do agree that women's expression of sexuality is normally different from that of men? Or do you disagree with that simple observation too?
In my response to bideshi gori, I did not consider groping to be part of eve teasing. Surely you wouldn't term groping as mere teasing, right? So, I added groping to the "other forms of sexual harassment". Given that fact, you do seem to agree with me when you say, "staring, commenting, whistling, singing are mostly done by unmarried guys".
Perhaps one of the reasons why Indian women do not "adam tease" Indian men is because they do not find them to be sexually attractive?
ReplyDeleteWhen I see a sexually attractive man in public, I do not cat call him or anything, but I definetly LOOK. I do not stare (in my culture to stare at anyone is considered extremely rude, for any reason). However I do get my looks in discreetly, perhaps also a smile.
Dear LL,
ReplyDeleteYou mentioned in your reply to one of the comments that I did not consider groping to be part of eve teasing.. However, in your original post, you say: When a guy brushes by a girl or pokes an elbow into her when passing her on the pavement, or copes a feel on a crowded train/bus, he is not thinking of suppressing her or all of womanhood. Consistency please!
Anyway, I know that you must have put a lot of thought into this issue before posting it, but there are some things you may not have considered.
It is about power, in the similar way that child molestation is about power: perpetrators choose victims who are unlikely to strike back. In the case of children it is because of actual lack of power. In this case it is either because of anonymity or because the woman would be unwilling to speakup.
Why a woman would not speak up:
a: "You must have been flaunting yourself. Wear a salwaar kameez next time!"
b: "Boys will be boys"
c: "Someone groped her in the bus yesterday. She must be a real slut, just asking for it. Let's go see if she'll put out for us."
d: "Tell your daughter to control herself, instead of blaming my son."
e: "You must have imagined it"
f: "Well, what's the big fuss, he just touched you. He didn't do anything, did he?"
g: "Don't tell me that you don't enjoy the attention, at least a little."
h: "Don't talk about touching breasts and things like that. Good girls do not talk about things like that!"
i: "You think you are some heroine, do you? Well, we'll see how smart you are tomorrow when I get a dozen of my friends."
Now, imagine yourself a woman, being "teased", would you ever retaliate or talk about the incident to someone if you knew that the response would always be one of the above???
So, while what you say is true, that there is no acceptable outlet for sexual desires, and a guy is bombarded with sexual imagery since very early youth, there is also another, uglier side to it, and that is, that they do it simply because they know that they can get away with it.
Tanushree and other readers may be interested in my latest post on Sexual Harassment and Power.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Libran Lover that a very major root cause of eve teasing may be sexual repression. However, like already mentioned by someone else, that does not explain why many men (Indian and otherwise) who are experiencing sexual repression or frustration DO NOT eve tease.
ReplyDeleteNot every male in USA has or can even get a girlfriend. There are frustrated males in USA also. Are they eve teasing? I've not experienced it. Similarly, in India not all sexually frustrated males eve tease. It takes a certain mind-set to sexually harrass a woman. Not all men, in India or elsewhere, carry that mind-set. That particular mind-set is what Tanushree and others here are addressing - and they feel it has to do with power politics of sorts.
During my first years in India when I was sexually harrassed almost daily, I can atest to how shocked, dismayed and powerless I felt. I felt that if I retaliated that the whole street would come against this foriegner for striking one of their own. I was wrong. After a few years of feeling victimized and powerless, I said to myself "enough of this shit", and I started to fight back. It worked.
Thank God my reputation is now that of the "white bitch" who won't take crap from any man!
However, there is something depressing about always feeling one has to be on the defensive against men, and it leaks over into other areas of life as well.
I would rather just be able to walk down a street or get on a bus without even having to think about it. But in North India that is impossible - most of the time.
I feel this is a major issue in all walks of life in India and that it should be dealt with boldly in all arenas. I would like to see Indian women (and men) take to the streets with signs declaring they will only vote for the mayor, Chief Minister or Prime Minister who declares WAR on "eve-teasers". Make yourselves a big vote bank! That way you will get alot of publicity. I'm not an Indian citizen and I can't vote otherwise I would spear-head this project.
videshi gori - Yes, you are right. Among sexually frustrated males, there are some who harass women and some who don't. Similarly, among the males who hold the power to harass and get away with it, there are some who choose to abuse that power and some who don't. So, how does power become the root cause or primary motivator of sexual abuse?
ReplyDeleteEverybody - Is something wrong in the way I am communicating? Why is it so tough for women to understand that unrestrained sexual feelings and/or unresolved sexual issues are the primary root causes for most sex crimes? Not some delusion of power or some psychotic power trip! (There are always exceptions, of course).
Do you think asexual males, with power, go around sexually abusing women? Do you think weak and sneaky bastards don't indulge in their own share of sexual harassment? Do you women with strength and positions of power do not get harassed and abused?
Once again, please read my other post Sexual Harassment and Power.
videshi gori wrote: However, there is something depressing about always feeling one has to be on the defensive against men, and it leaks over into other areas of life as well.
ReplyDeleteLL: I agree. This is the saddest thing about eve teasing. It has successfully robbed women of their fair share of public life and public enjoyment in many parts of India and the world.
videshi gori also wrote: I would like to see Indian women (and men) take to the streets with signs declaring they will only vote for the mayor, Chief Minister or Prime Minister who declares WAR on "eve-teasers". Make yourselves a big vote bank! That way you will get alot of publicity. I'm not an Indian citizen and I can't vote otherwise I would spear-head this project.
LL: The fact that you are not an Indian citizen need not stop you from spear-heading such a project. God knows, there are scores of non-citizens who are doing lots of things - good and bad - in India through non-governmental organizations, churches, etc. If you think you can do it, just do it. Countless Indian women will be ever grateful to you.
I don't think that government or laws or law enforcement can effectively address the root cause of the issue. However, it is certainly possible to provide more relief and protection to women than there is right now. So, the project of the kind you propose can be a complementary effort in that direction.
Libran Lover - which part of USA are in you in now?
ReplyDeleteDo you have yahoo messenger?
videshi gori - If you want to chat, email your Yahoo id to my Google mail: libranlover. I will message you in an hour or later.
ReplyDeleteI think there's a semantics issue at work here. I think Libran Lover is misunderstanding the particular usage of the word "power" that the other contributers here are meaning to convey.
ReplyDeleteLibran Lover - A typical Indian female may have more power in many areas of life than the man who harrasses her. She may be more financially powerful than he is, for example. She may be more physically powerful also. She may be more powerful than he in many ways. However, I think what Tanushree and others are getting at here is the dynamics of gender relations in present day Indian culture. India is still very much a male dominant culture. Girls more than boys in the average Indian household are the ones to learn cooking and caring for others such as guests and family members. These men who molest women in the streets probably go home at night with their hot rotis waiting for them, made by some female member of the house and when they ask for a glass of water or cup of chai - a female member of the house will bring it to them. So they are probably used to getting what they want from females without any back-talk like, "Yo Dude! Get off your lazy ass and get your own glass of water!"
Thus, when these same males saunter into the streets of India, they don't expect females to fight back when they harrass them. They expect the female to cower in shame and ignore them silently.
videshi gori - Thanks for the explanation. I understand what you are saying. I understand what others are saying. But, I just don't understand why you girls don't understand what I am saying. It's frustrating.
ReplyDeletePlease pardon me for being crude, but here's an analogy of how this whole situation is: Some guy(s) showed you girls the finger. Based on the size, shape, etc. of the finger, you girls claim to know what the guy has in his shorts. Meanwhile, here I am: A GUY! And I am telling you that your imaginations and claims about what a guy has in his shorts, based on what you saw of his finger, are quite off the mark. Instead of understanding and accepting what I am saying, you girls want me to believe your off the mark claims.
I am sorry. I am a guy. I know what goes on in the mind of an eve teasing guys. Nothing you girls say will change my opinion, which is based on personal, first hand knowledge and experience.
FYI - Street harassment happens even in the Western countries, where women are supposed to be more empowered. What is the bet that most of those harassers are single and/or have psycho-sexual issues? And do you think that those harassers in the malls and busy streets of America think of the women they harass as being powerless, docile creatures? No! A guy with sex on his mind does not have so much thinking capacity - whether it's an Indian guy or an American guy!
Now, don't tell me that the extent or type of street harassment in West is different from India, etc., etc. Of course, it is different. Just as we eat in different ways - Indians with hands, the Westerners with forks. But the cause and effect are the same - of harassment as well as of eating.
PS: Did you email me your Yahoo id? I did not get any mails from you. So, wondering...
I've been all across America and haven't been sexually harrassed even once.
ReplyDeleteEverytime I go to India I am sexually harrassed countless times.
videshi gori - I am sorry that you have been harassed so much in India. I truly am. Perhaps, you are not harassed so much in the US because the people there don't find you attractive. A little Googling will show you that there are plenty of women being harassed in the streets of the US and other Western countries. This website even has photographs of the harassers: http://hollabacknyc.blogspot.com.
ReplyDeleteI am not denying that harrassment takes place in USA. It is not a part of my culture to be in denial. Yes, it happens. Yes, it happens much more in India.
ReplyDeletePremarital romance! Libran lover..i think you need to go out and see the men outside...They have ample opportunities to romance and love girls. But they dont have the guts to even talk to grils. I am not a feminist at all, but yes, even the minimal guts that girls have is not visible in the guys! They simply are scared of being in any relationship. So when you guys are sooooo very scared of your mommies, why do you think about romance! Dont you think its too cheap for you!
ReplyDeleteI feel guys in India and to some extent generally, need to grow out of their mommies lasp and cut off their apron strings, only then they should pursue their "sexual prowess" I feel indian men need a permission from their mommies even to shake off! Pardon me, but I am yet to see a true man who is not cooing in his mommy's lap!
Right on NK!
ReplyDeleteRead LL's post about his momma's cooking. It's all there!
There's another post To Stay or Not to Stay where he writes about the pros and cons of staying in USA. Another poster asks him if he will not feel for his parents who will want him to live with him. With all due respect to LL, who I find to be a sweet, sensitive and thoughtful young man, he, like other young (and old and in-between) Indian men are still sucking the breast milk of their mothers, so to speak. I addressed this problem in my post to that thread.
You are right. There is a time to be a child in the lap of one's mother, and there is a time to grow up. Guess what? 20 years is around a good time to do the latter!
VG - NK claims that all Indian men are not taking opportunities for romance that Indian women are apparently throwing at them because they are hiding behind their mothers! And you say that's right on? WTF! If someone unfamiliar with the American culture were to say that all American women are sluts cuz they are almost sure to have slept with more than one man in their lives, do you think that would make sense?
ReplyDeleteIt is not that Indian guys don't have the guts to talk to girls. It is just it is not part of the Indian culture to talk easily to strangers. Unlike Americans, we don't smile and greet every stranger whose eyes meet our eyes. I mean, which Indian girls are talking or being friends with a guy who is either not in their school/class or their colleague or a neighbor or related to them? How many Indian girls do either NK or you know who have had a friendly conversation with any guy other than the ones I have mentioned above? For that matter, where are the Americans with romantic intentions having friendly conversations with strangers? Any place other than singles bars? FYI, there are no singles bars in India where people go specifically to find dates or one night stands. In all other places like trains and airplanes and clubs where American strangers talk to each other casually (not romantically), Indians do too.
And VG, with all due respect to you, if you don't understand me or my culture, please STFU! I miss my mother's cooking translates to your simplistic (American) brain as my still sucking at my mother's milk? If you miss the hotdog from your college cafeteria, should I conclude that you miss sucking the cafeteria chef's cock?
As for my comment in the To Stay or Not to Stay post, go back, read it again and understand it better. It is in English... shouldn't be too difficult for you. The guy asked me if my parents will stay with me, and I told him that EVENTUALLY they will live with me, and that they will spend their SENIOR years in their care. You Americans may be okay about leaving your parents in old people's home and nursing homes and visiting them about once a year. Don't think that somehow makes you more grown-up and independent compared to Indians who take care of their parents in their old age. No, it doesn't make you more independent. It just makes you more selfish.
And even if I wanted my parents to live with me NOW, instead of in their senior years, you cannot conclude that I am not free of my parents or dependent on them. I have the capability, the responsibility and the maturity to take care of my family, my wife and kids, and my parents. If it is really necessary, I have the capacity to support a second family for charity. I have helped my parents fund the college education of both my sisters. I have helped them fund the wedding of one sister and will do so for the other sister. In more mature and civilized cultures, a man who can do all this is not considered childish and immature. He is considered capable and responsible beyond anything you could imagine. No American would dream of doing anything of this sort to his family or siblings. Just because selfishness is the popular fashion in America, don't think that we are weird for being close to our families. Whether we live together or not, Indian families are close enough to meet and enjoy each other's company for every festival, wedding and family gathering. We are close enough to learn from the wisdom of our elders and pass on the wisdom to our youngsters. We are not like American families who can barely stand each other for a couple of hours during Thanksgiving dinners.
And VG, don't say whatever comes to your mind just cuz words are cheap. Be especially careful about commenting on other cultures. Visiting a few places in India, for a few days, does not make you an expert on a very diverse, complex and ancient culture. Don't measure and interpret our lives through the scales and lenses of your culture. That is the easiest way to misunderstand other cultures and earn the disrepute that Americans have all over the world.
Whoa!
ReplyDeleteI just read your Dating an Indian Man II and was gonna compliment you on how analytical and in-depth your observations are. Now I'm not so sure.
My comment "right on" was more about how Indian men do appear to myself and other Indian women as being too dependent on their parents into their young adult years. I am not speaking as a tourist. I live in India and have for the past decade. I live with Indians in an Indian family. This is all first hand.
I also mentioned taking care of one's parents when they are very old and in need. But if the parents are still young (under 75) and not in need - why live with them? Why bring one's wife home to live with them? Why doesn't the groom go to live with his in-laws? Answers please.
Ever heard the term "mamma's boy"?
Do you know any woman who wants to hook up with one? By the way, hook up doesn't mean for a one-night stand. I'm using the phrase in it's long-term sense.
In general I have enjoyed reading your posts here and have agreed with much of them. But this one was "reactionary". I'm sure now that you've had the time to reflect on how you responded to me, you probably feel you could have done a better and more mature job.
I don't think we are in a total disagreement here, most Americans that I know do care for the elderly and needy in their families. However alot of old people do not want to live with their grown children because they are used to being independent (an American trait). I have seen cases where adult children of parents are begging them to move in with them and the old parents are like, "I'm still capable of taking care of myself!"
It's a different psychological make-up than what you find in India, in general. No value judgement here, just an observation on the differences in culture.
That being said, amongst my family and friends, when the elderly get very old and needy - family is there for them. However, if everyone in the entire family is working who can quit there job to look after the elderly? Sometimes someone does, if they can afford it (you know how ridiculously expensive things are in America these days). In my family everyone has been cared for by family in their last days.
As I'm sure you have seen, people in their retirement years in America are enjoying what they call the "golden years". They are travelling, going on cruises to parts of the world they've not seen, participating in sports or activities they did not have the time for when working. In India I have seen people give up exploring life as young as in their thirties, where in America, life is just beginning. So I think Indian parents are conditioned to become old and needy WAY before their time. Would you disagree with me on this?
Anyway, just wanted to clarify a thing or two.
videsh gori - Let my reactions to comments on one post not stop you from appreciating my other post(s). :-)
ReplyDeleteI did reflect on my response to you before I posted the response. And, I posted what I thought was a deserving response.
IMO, you were way out of line in two respects:
1. Making personal comments about me based on superficial observations, without really knowing what kind of a person I am.
2. Making general comments about an entire culture without fully understanding the culture. You may live in India and might have observed Indian life closely, but obviously you are doing it through the eyes of an American. As such, you are judging the Indian culture using the criteria of the American culture, which leads to erroneous conclusions.
Everything I have said in my comment was said to make you understand how you were out of line, and not to personally attack you. I hope you understand that. I don't know enough about you to be able to personally attack you. Even if I did, I wouldn't want to.
In American society, it is the norm and is almost mandatory for people to leave their parents when they start going to college. In such a culture, if one continues to live with their parents well after becoming adults, it would be safe to conclude that they are dependent on their parents. In the Indian context, we simply cannot make such conclusions.
Moreover, it is not as if Americans don't defer to their seniors. In business, politics, military, sports and almost every other successful facet of American society, there is a very obvious structure in place where young people are coached, guided, mentored by older ones; where people look upto seniors and precedents, consult a wide circle of colleagues before taking key decisions. It is only when it comes to personal life, that Americans tend to be individualistic. Even here, the individual is guided by prevailing social norms and peer influence.
If Americans truly had a free personal spirit, they would strive for that individual freedom in all other spheres apart from just personal - business, politics, etc. But they don't. This tells me that the American need for individuality in personal life may have more to do with selfishness than a sense of freedom or responsibility. (Not that there is anything wrong with being selfish to a healthy extent.)
Also, I feel that the reason for America's success in business, military, etc., is because juniors are guided by their seniors and the structures they have put in place. And not having such a structure in personal life is precisely why American family life is not much to write home about.
VG - I do agree that Indians are conditioned to become "old and retiring" wayy before their time. I wish that were not true in personal life. I wish that were true in Indian politics and all the really old people (with old ideas) went away to give way to the younger ones.
ReplyDeleteAnother thing I want to clarify is that, there are indeed some Indians who are very dependent on their parents or seniors, leaving many important life decisions to them. I have referred to such guys as "pansies" in my post on Dating Indian Men II. This is no different from the fact that there are American men and women who can't or won't take responsibility for their own lives.
When I said that most Indians are over-dependent on their parents even as adults I did not mean financially. I meant emotionally, personally. Usually adult Indians are earning some type of income and contributing to the family financial pool, although I have seen several adult Indians who do not have jobs but they get their subji/roti every night anyway and a bed to sleep on. They never have to worry about that because they their mother is never going to kick them out of the house and say, "grow up and get a job!", but that's another topic altogether.
ReplyDeleteHere's what I have seen in India -a young single adult male living with his parents has a good job. He gives his monthly earnings to his mother who then dishes out to him petty cash for whatever he needs, but he has to ask for it and if she doesn't like what he's going to buy, she won't give it to him. This is not psychologically healthy in the least. I advised him to keep his paychecks and give a little contribution to his mother every month if she needs it. However, she is a well-earning professional and thus she does not need it but his whole act of handing over the entire paycheck to her is a kind of symbolic thanks for bringing him into this world and raising him. I explained to him that to give birth to another human and raise him was her personal choice and thus her duty. He does not owe her the rest of his entire life. He had a girlfriend at the time and I advised him not to tell his girlfriend what he does (giving all his money to Mamma and then asking for an "allowance" back), as that would turn ANY female TOTALLY OFF. He agreed with me that this habit of his has to change and perhaps by now he has implemented it. This young man is not 19 but rather 30 years old!
Of course it is true that I do look at Indian culture through the eyes of an American - to some extent. However, being that I have close ties to India, Indian people and Indian culture in many ways, I understand the reasons why Indian society does certain things. Some of those reasons go back thousands of years as India's culture is very ancient and some ancient practices are still presevered today in one form or another. I understand that and look at India through that prism also, not just through a modern one. However, just because something is old and time-honored does not mean that it is healthy and good or that it ever was. On the otherhand, just because something is new and modern does not mean that it is healthy either. One has to judge a system by it's results - the ground reality rather than the ideal of it.
Of course Americans defer to the older and wiser on many things. Only a fool does not take good advice when they can get it. But one reason for America's so-called "financial success" is the emphasis on individuality here. Make everyone an independent earning entity and more money will be spent by them and thus the market will flourish and prosper. It's a system that has worked thus far. The downside is a huge consumer culture that just keeps consuming and consuming non-replenishable items from the earth thus leading to environmental damage. Now it seems India's big cities are going that same route and I don't know if that's such a good idea. Now India is also becoming overly dependent on the import of foreign oil to keep it's motor-cars and motor-cycles running.
As long as the emphasis is on living an artificial life detached from nature and her cycles, working against nature rather than with her, the entire planet will spiral downwards. We humans better come up with an alternative soon but I fear that we have gotten so used to this way of life that a more natural lifestyle would be considered abhorrant to most.
VG - Thanks for your comment. I am sure what you said in your last comment are quite true, taken individually. But gotta be very careful when deriving generalizations about an entire culture based on these individual instances.
ReplyDeleteSo, are you still living in India now? Or are you back to your country? If you are in India, where exactly are you, may I ask? And what took you to India? How did you get interested in India in the first place?
OK let's get back to the subject, the root cause of eve teasing in India.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you that sexual repression and lack of appropriate outlet is a major reason. But not the only one.
Let's look at this more closely.
My understanding, based upon my experience in India is that many even otherwise "happily married" couples in India are not sexually satisfied, and thus repressed in some way.
1. Lot's of people living under one roof does not make for a romantic and carefree atmosphere. Sex cannot be uninhibited when it has to be quiet so the other family members don't hear. More than that, often times children sleep with their parents in the same room.
2. Couples in India rarely go away from the rest of the family for a weekend "getaway" vacation on their own.
3. Physical displays of affection even in their own homes is rare between couples. I've yet to see a man embrace and kiss his wife in front of his parents before leaving for work in India.
4. There is a great deal of inhibition regarding even married sexuality amongst Indians even today which results in a lot of men and women not being skilled in the erotic arts of love. How do I know this? They tell me. Oh boy how they tell me!
Basically this all adds up to very frustrated men and women. The men seem to deal with it through sexual harrassment - projecting their fantasies of wild and uninhibited sex unto women in the streets. Women project their fantasies inward and masterbate.
To LL, Videshi Gori and all souls,
ReplyDeleteI personally think LL hit the nail on the head with his horn dog Indian youngsters totally frustrated out of their minds from 12-14 to 25-28 till they marry! In fact I am a strong believer in having many love hotels, girlie bars or dancing bars in the city where women are 'available' to serve men--I say this in the most kindest intentions. It is a wonderful feeling to get to know a woman, experience her kindness her warmth, her sexiness and the joy and rush that comes from being with the opposite sex. Where do Indian youngsters get this chance? Only a handful Indian kids boys and girls are groping around and making out but the rest of them are only cavorting with 'Madam Palm and her five daughters'. We Indians should stop being prude and open love hotels by hundreds in big cities just like Hong Kong or Tokyo or even Singapore. I hope this helps!
this was nice portrayal of a serious problem in india. I like the honest and true projection of blatant riddle in our country.
ReplyDeleteHad Indian men been reciprocated from females here, probably ever-teasing would have gone down dramatically.
but it doesn't justify the cruel and lewd act of men.
They can't be vindicated of this shameful orgy.
Hi! WOW!!!! A perfect exampleof justification of the cheap beahviour... I am sexually frustated.. allow me to have pre-marital sex and I will not annoy anoter girl till then shall continue to annoy women
ReplyDeleteDude before posting smart ass comments please understand the importance of culture... Indian culture is one of the most oldest cultures and a lot of toug has gone nto any ancient sytem or culture... Here in India we consider sex as spiritual...
I personaly beleive that sex is the only one can go close ot God. It is the only way mna/ woman can create life... Orgasm is one moment when we are completely in that moment - tere is no past nor future...If you can understand 50% of what I am trying to tell you tne yo will see theimporance of why we believe in just having one partner.. Indian culture therefore also beieves onearly marriages... we in modern India are confused and eve-teasng etc are phenomenons tha took birth in the last century...
sexual harrasemnt publicly or dmestic makes no differnce.. ultimately what the victim goes though is a horrible feeling which you will ever understand till you are subjected to it... anywasy please take a look at hte following (source : wikipeida)...
A 2002 study of students in the 8th through the 11th grade by the American Association of University Women (AAUW) revealed that 83% of girls have been sexually harassed, and 78% of boys have been sexually harassed. [7]In their 2006 study on sexual harassment at colleges and universities, the AAUW reported that 62% of female college students and 61% of male college students report having been sexually harassed at their university, with 80% of the reported harassment being peer-to-peer. 51% of male college students admit to sexually harassing someone in college, with 22% admitting to harassing someone often or occasionally.
P.S: I am not a feminst...
Priyanka,
ReplyDeleteThanks for your extensive comment. I agree with pretty much everything you have written. At the same time, I also stand by what I have written in this blog post. I don't think our view points are contradictory. In fact, they are complementary. How this can be so, I cannot go into details here. Understanding that requires a dialog, and this commenting system does not facilitate that dialog very effectively. Write to me directly if you'd like to discuss this further: libranlover-at-gma1l-d0t-c0m.
LL
Eve teasing, I think can't simply be boiled down to sexual repression and such although sexual repression might have a role to play. I believe it also has something to do with gender perception and other issues, because in places in India that have less social gender disparity like among Goans or hilly states of North-East, the concept is eve-teasing is rare and almost non-existant.
ReplyDeleteYou might like to think about it, as it would explain a lot of questions raised above. If eve teasing is indeed a form of perverted sexual expression, perhaps it is because it is accepted in these societies as a norm. I could never imagine myself or any of my people engaging in such sort of behaviour, it will be considered uncouth, uncivilised and savage.
Our marriages are generally not arranged by the way and neither is pre-marital sex a very common thing here. And there are some very beautiful girls Goa (esp. Mesticos) like one of my ex-girlfriend who had never encountered eve-teasing from Goans. Maybe a food for thought...
Aberforth,
ReplyDeleteThanks for that excellent alternative view point. I am not familiar with Goan society at all. I have to take your comment at face value that pre-marital sex is not very common there. I would have thought that in places where gender disparity is non-existent, there would also be less restrictions on pre-marital sex.
I have never been to Goa, but have always heard that people can be more 'free' there. Isn't it one of the very few places in India where people can be nude on a beach?
Thanks again.
In my experience, pre-marital sex isn't very common anywhere among Indians, Goan or others. Just the extent of tolerance differs, right from the fanatical 'honour killings' of Sikhs to 'casual distaste' of Goans. Dating in Goa is pretty much accepted among mesticos and mixed race communities like mine, although sex before engagement or marriage is generally frowned upon by older generation. Its a lot of grey area, depending on family attitudes, religious values and outlook. Catholics, Evangelists and most Hindus tend to be more on the conservative side in this area.
ReplyDeletePre-marital sex or sex of any kind is pretty much the norm among non-Indian tourists though, in fact sex, easy availability of drugs and gambling have unofficially become the backbone of Goan tourism. Its sort of Panama City of India. However the Indian and State governments choose to 'officially' deny these facts to prevent themselves getting any negative reputation.
As for nudeness on the beach, its technically illegal and practically impossible in the popular beaches for obvious reasons. In the less popular and smaller beaches, it is possible though, especially during 'off hours' like late evenings and early mornings. And luxury resorts are kind out outside the purview of the law as long as there are no raids.
Thank you for this article its quite good
ReplyDeleteThe reason women do not Adam tease seems very plainly obvious, and is given by the Russel Clark experiment.
ReplyDeleteIn this experiment, a reasonably attractive man, and a reasonably attractive woman, both went around university campuses, stopping members of the opposite sex and saying: "I have been noticing you around campus. I find you to be attractive. Would you go to bed with me tonight?" - exactly that, nothing else.
The results were startling and eye-opening.
No women (not one, not a single solitary one) said "yes" to the man. 75% of men said "yes" to the woman.
If a woman Adam-teased, the man would take that as interest, and would be happy, and would say yes. But women must be picky about their partners (pregnancy, loss of virginity), so would not risk random "shotgun" teasing: instead they would carefully select their targets and, to preserve their reputation, ask them quietly.
Do men, or women, have more power in this scenario? Neither. They just have different concerns and priorities.
How is it best tackled? I would say socially. If everyone knows that eve teasers can't get a girl, then they'd become the subject of ridicule. "You wolf-whistled at that girl? What, you only got a small package?". An ad campaign to this effect should be much more effective than one just saying it's bad and mean.
Incidentally, eve-teasing used to be a big problem in the US back in the 50s and 60s, in the days of the greasers. It changed as society changed. I think some movie about that time (Grease?) features the main characters trying to accidentally bump into women to cop a feel.
Thinking about it, even wolf-whistling in the UK and US seems to have prettymuch died a death too.
ReplyDelete(apologies for triple post!) You write in the original post, "In Western countries like the US, if a guy feels attracted to a girl, there is a very definite social code and language he follows to express his intentions."
ReplyDeleteNot so, not so. Most guys are actually oblivious of any code, if there is one. They do what they see their peers doing, with variations, and if something works, they stick to it. Geeks tend to have no clue, since their peers are typically a small clique of geeky friends who don't do much girl chasing themselves, so they have nobody to learn from.
Men in the west (and I suspect the rest of the world) have no "power" when it comes to dating. None. Zero. They are almost certain to be rejected, and yet the responsibility of asking still typically falls to them. Repeated rejection by one method makes them drop that strategy and try another.
This is reflected in the fact that most online multiplayer games and chat areas have a problem with female characters getting harrassed... even though it's common knowledge that a lot of the female names have males playing them! The source of the harassment is the same frustration that makes eve-teasing happen.
However, in the US, but not so much the UK, there *is* one standard thing men and boys do. They offer the girl their phone number (or increasingly, online contact details). Either by scrawling it on a napkin or bus-ticket, or by giving a business card.
Again, this is placing the male in the role of supplicant, and placing all the power in the hands of the girl. She has three choices: reject the number (often with a biting, scornful comment); take the number but not call; or take the number, and call at some point if she's feeling bored.
Then, through the medium of the phone (or increasingly, through the net) they can chat, decide if they're suited, and if so, perhaps agree to a date.
Perhaps dating sites might help with the situation? OKCupid seems to have a great matching system which also encourages users to remain "sticky" to the site.
Or perhaps an ad campaign "don't tease her - give her your number!" Or combine the two: "boys might tease - but real men offer their card!"
Appreciate all the learning here. Just hate the sexual harassment, both overt and sneaky. At least the overt is honest unlike the sleazos that fake sophistication but are far worse.
ReplyDeleteI wondered if the sexual harassment was "dog off the chain syndrome" where guys outside of their circles of social control can prey upon women without the consequence of family sanction.
Thank you LL & everyone who has shared.
Harassament & assault are unacceptable. Yes means yes & No means NO. I expect you'll want that repeated.
ReplyDeleteKat,
ReplyDeleteThanks for stating the obvious, and no, we don't want that repeated. I responded to your comment on the other post also, and I am doing so here again - there is nothing in this blog to imply that harassment is acceptable. So, there is no need to state the obvious as if anything I've written implies otherwise.
LL
I just want to know what is the right wasy to handle eve teasing? do you just ignore them and act indifferent or confront them. what works? Rashna
ReplyDeleteRashna,
ReplyDeleteYou have asked a very difficult question. There is no one simple and easy answer. So much depends on the individual situation, the place and the people involved.
However, two things should be kept in mind when dealing with any harassment situation:
1. The immediate and primary objective should be to get away from the situation and the person that is causing you to be harassed. Get away and be safe. Don't do anything that will make things worse or trap you in that situation.
2. The second objective should be to ensure that the person who was harassing is suitably chastised or punished so that s/he will not harass you again or harass anybody else.
Hope that helps.
LL
Dewimorgan, you single-handedly blew this entire discussion out of the water my man. Excellent job. You spoke the truth, that wich is accurate and fact. This is evident in the fact that after your posts, the posts made by the stupid women instantly stopped. With the exception of Feme (wich is spelled femme by the way) who tried to save face by courtesy stating and reaffirming that sexual harrasment is hated and bad, and afterwards trying not to sound like a hateful and resentful woman, stated her thnx for the lessons learned and the sharing of knowledge (as if).
ReplyDeleteSame goes for Kat who simply skipped Feme's stealthy and modest approach, and just came right out stating (the obvious like LL said) "sexual harrasment is wrong, humph!" As if to say that "even though Dewimorgan made such irrefutable and brilliant points, just remember guys that it's your fault and yours alone. It's entirely your responsibility."
Women use one (so-called) bad deed, groping a female, to absolve themselfs from their own responsibility and immoral actions. The reason that a man will and a woman will not (also up for debate) grope the opposite sex, is because women dress provocatively and men generally do not. And even if men do/did, you practically can't measure up to a womans level of debauchery. If men walked around dressed provocatively in equal measure and occurrence as women, women who are sexually frustrated would DEFFINITLY sexually harras men. Without a fucking doubt!
Society has evolved to frown upon men who sexually express themselfs. You know the whole "that's so gay" thing. A man has to balance investing time and effort into his appearance with not seeming to gay or effeminate. A woman however is EXPECTED to go all-out in this fashion (wich is why women take so long to get ready to go out as opposed to men). For a woman it is accepted and expected to be a provocative slut.
Imagine being a sexually frustrated individual, male or female it doesn't matter, going out into the street and everywhere you look you see the opposite sex dressed in tight clothes that show off the enticing curves and bulges of the human body. Your sex drive can take over and make you do things that are frowned upon by a capilistic society. Because in a capitalistic society nothing is free. So you can't just go out and grab an ass to get your fix, you have to work for it.
Women have a monopoly on sexuality and victimhood and they enjoy it. That's why when someone like Dewimorgan makes such excellent points and tells it like it truly is (that men have it far worse then women), you get responses like those of Feme and Kat, and it's also why people like Priyanka and Videso Gori don't have a comeback anymore and promptly excuse themselfs. Remember that imaturity that you were talking about Videso? It's right there in the posts of women like Feme and Kat, and in your quick exit from an argument that you can't win because Dewimorgan oh so skillfully hit the nail right on the head.
As a matter of fact, maybe it's not really that women enjoy there sexual monopoly and victimhood, at least not all of you. It goes much deeper then that. You identify with it. You really believe that you are victims, victims of men and the patriarchy. You believe that you have the unrefuted right to be as sexually provocative as you damn well please, and that you should be able to do this uninhibited and without any "unwanted" attention from men whatsoever. You fight people who go against these principals with an uncanny vigor because subconciously, you know that if they take this away from you, then there is nothing left by wich you can identify yourself. You wouldn't have a purpose.
LL you do not strike me as one who would indulge in Eve-Teasing.
ReplyDeleteNot pointing the finger at you LL, sorry!
ReplyDeleteI agree that women/girls who've been eve-teased need to have the matter dealt with forthwith to stop recurrence/continuation. Nip it in the bud before that sort of activity escalates. Power & control, bullying (etc) if not knocked on the head, gives the abuser "permission" (in the abuser's own mind), so has to be stopped, just as you say.
Kat
ROFL. Not even going to try and argue with me ladies? Brilliant >:) In the face of rational, logic and a strong mind your average female will opt to ignore and cower away from the situation. Either that or she'll throw a tantrum. She knows that she won't be able to spew her poison and actually influence someone's thinking with it. You were more then happy to engage LL in an agrument. Ofcourse LL, because of his genuinely good hart is a bit naief in my opinion. Makes it easier for you gals to puke double-standards and such.
ReplyDeleteI've grabbed a lot of asses up untill now. And quite a few women actually appreciated this. I engaged one girl in conversation after grabbing and rubbing her butt full palm. She happily obliged. It was only after I did this about 3-4 times that she started to get a bit nervous and made a quick getaway LOL.
Once in the middle of a vast and open crowd, my friend noticed a girl standing by herself and decided to feel up her butt. The girl didn't flinch. She didn't even look back. I was standing about 5 feet away from them waiting till my friend was done. He comes over, grabs me by the wrist, pulls me back towards the girl and procedes to stick my hand onto her butt. This guy standing opposite of the girl saw the whole thing and had this baffled look on his face. He said something to the girl (if I had to guess he was probably trying to put her on notice that two guys were feeling her up, or was asking her why she stood there so passively while they did it), she didn't respond whatsoever lol. She just kept looking slightly to her left (as if she wanted to look back but couldn't for some reason) with a zoned out and semi-iritated look on her face. It was like she couldn't make up her mind on wether to act all pissed off or admit that she was totally impressed and turned on because two guys were feeling up her ass in the midst of a vast crowd.
Me and my friend walked away and left the guy there still trying to get the girl to show that she was coherent. Meanwhile she just stood there, still zoned out with a sort of powerless frown on her face. It was kinda like we were the daddy, and she was the little girl who had just done something bad. Daddy now had to discipline his little girl, so he takes away one of her toys leaving the little girl frowning/pouting over it.
'Twas funny really.
There is actually an entire society of men who go out and grope women. With great succes I might add. Done right, the woman actually forgets her indoctrinated sense of victimization and princess mentality, and just goes with her instincts as a feminine and sexual being. Curious? Don't believe me? Just google the word "Chikan", it may even be an eye-opener for some of you.
Women are used to having it both ways. Through stereotypes, double-standards, paradigms and victimhood, you go through life in a constant state of provocation and excusation. Everybody knows women behave immorally. But nobody has the balls to come out and say it. You have a substantial amount of power in all facets of life and you don't mind abusing that power. Especially when dealing with men. In your mind, we are your playthings. Stupid, gullible, easily manipulated and we deserve what's coming to us.
Yet there are still some guys out there who don't put up with you and your grandeur. You create your own worst enemy's. Rapists, serial killers and ofcourse your garden variety eve-teaser. Action/reaction, the law of causality. The only constant that truly victimizes women is the government. Who incessantly holds it's hand above your head to protect you from men (as if that were necessary) only to manipulate you into hating us wich then makes us hate you.
ReplyDeleteIt's called divide and conquer.
But who am I trying to convince here. You women will never wake up. You will believe and abide by any sort of lies as long as it comes from a powerfull source that feigns having your best interest at heart. Thinking for yourselfs doesn't even enter your mind. Men know this, that's why they will back you up even when you're obviously wrong. It's a means to an end for those idiots. "I might get laid". "If ya can't beat 'em join 'em" mentality hard at work.
Now come on ladies, who want's to take me on? I promise I'll be gentle when I crush you're believe system into dust.
Nice article! I share exactly the same views. Perhaps you would be interested to read my articles on these issues:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.vijaypadiyar.in/blog/2003/07/love-vs-arranged-marriages-letter-to
http://www.vijaypadiyar.in/blog/2009/05/does-ban-on-adult-tv-programming-make
Regards
Vijay
Men who sexually harass? Yuck. I had an egotist engage in unwanted groping of me. I was ill, disabled and vulnerable over the death of my twin and so paralysed by shock as he was a qualified teacher with a degree in psychology. I'd expected someone from the teaching profession to have more ethics, not to indecently assault any woman within arms reach.
ReplyDeleteHe admitted to arousal over a 16 year old school girl. Teachers are required to be beyond reproach in character and behaviours, to be teaching children.
I hope the sleazy creep is deported back to Mumbai. His behaviour is unacceptable.
Assault is assault.
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ReplyDeleteI worked with domestic violence survivors as well as survivors of sexual abuse. Its not sexual yearning that steers the abusers, rather its power and control.
ReplyDeleteOf course not all men or Indian males are perpetrators of violation.
However gendered societies, which assign premium to "maleness", means being female automatically consigns you to second-class citizenship.
Sexism occurs in Countries where women have second class status, where they are paid less for the same amount of work, where baby girls are given up for adoption or drowned, where women are not allowed to work or get hired/promoted over a man (and stated in the company manual) where women get sexually harassed so they have to create single sex public train carts, where girls can’t go to school past a certain age, where women just earned the right to vote. (Insert any country where this comes to mind).
Think about all your female non-Western friends who might feel pressure from their parents to marry and have babies instead of forging their own independence. As long as women are not viewed as equal to men, they won’t be treated with respect.
Right to vote: Vietnam (1946), Bangladesh (1972) and a lot of other countries in and around 1950s after the universal declaration of human rights through the UN
In Asia women’s 2nd class status is institutionalised through laws (inheritance law in India) and the stigma of a divorced woman or girls born out of inter-racial marriages (Vietnam) or the 1-child policy that results in boy-girl ratios of 118-100 in villages through infanticide or orphaning (China). Where women are less, they are viewed and treated as less.
For those in Rape Crisis or Women’s Refuges, their men from India had been raised with this sexist gendered preconception towards women. This stereotype, (esp. for some who grow up in a dysfunctional environment) leads them to continue to regard women with those same misconceptions.
The media and film industries make it ok to stalk or harass women against their will. So if women are dressed "inappropriately" they somehow “deserve” to be "eve-teased".
Ask girls who ride the public transport if they've been groped or sexually harassed - of course their answer will be YES.
http://subterfusex.wordpress.com/2010/07/02/eve-teasing/
ReplyDelete... blogger from Bombay who details the way routine and accepted harassment has irrevocably damaged her life. The part that most moved me was this:
Don’t hitchhike.
Don’t sit alone by the sea for more than ten minutes.
Stop thinking about watching the sun rise over a field, all by yourself.
Why do we debate the whys of harassment? I just care that there is harassment. Whether it’s sexually motivated or otherwise, am I sitting around figuring out motive when someone’s coming onto me like a pile of bricks from Acme? No, I’m not. I’m busy feeling shocked and violated. For men who believe that this comes out as a unilateral attack on them, it’s not. If you take it personally and defensively explain your behavior, you’re not helping matters. It’s a problem — for whatever reason. Words hurt. We’re not going to just buck up and move on. It’s only gotten us more of the same. At some point, it’s just going to come to a head.
http://subterfusex.wordpress.com/2010/07/02/eve-teasing/
Mara,
ReplyDeleteYes, it is indeed sad that women cannot experience complete freedom due to harassment.
However, it is important to understand the why of a situation. You cannot completely solve a problem without addressing the root cause of the problem. As long as the root cause remains strong, whatever you do to solve the problem will only temporarily mask it.
LL
I grew up in what I hope is a by-gone era. At the time, if we so much as spoke to a boy in the same class at school we were automatically blamed and punished as bad sluts by misogynist fathers and were kept at home as prisoners in domestic servitude to male chauvinists.
ReplyDeleteMy brothers on the other hand were encouraged to go out Tomcatting or admonished as "sissys", or "poofters" and weaklings for not getting a leg over or "conquering" girls and women. Of course this predatory activity was to show off their "manhood" and rape the right of passage which heralded them becoming "real men".
Their victims were evidence of such "manliness" yet deemed sluts and whores of loose morals and as "damaged goods" scorned as less value. (How can any man be a "real-man" if their prey are such "easy lays" and cheap, dirty, rotten, low-down sluts?)
Why lock up Little Red Riding Hood while encouraging the Big Bad Wolf to go out abusing women?
Surely its better to change the double standards and educate males & females that sexual harassment and assault is unacceptable?
Should I feel a Lorena Bobbit moment coming on?
hey "the demon "- i think u are full of shit
ReplyDeleteReal Man
Brilliant essay. Grateful to have run across it. I'm female and have experienced my share of infuriating eve teasing in India. Heck, even my 60-something year old mother gets ogled by the guys there. It's utterly disgusting. I typically yell at the guys and make faces at them, but obviously that exacerbates the situation. Last time I was there, I eventually started covering my face with a head scarf (this actually worked the best of all). I love the country but will definitely go the head-scarf / burqa route next time.
ReplyDeleteAnd yet, like LL, I think the feminist arguments about eve-teasing miss the obvious point. Why don't women eve-tease men? Let's face it: men have more testosterone than women. Their sexual urges are stronger and more physically aggressive. Evolutionary psychology research, like the study cited by another commentator, show pretty clearly that men are more promiscuous and sexually impulsive than women (though granted, neither sex is all that monogamous).
Bottle up these urges for decades on end, give millions of men no chance in high hell of having a semi-normal romantic / sexual relationship with a woman, and what you get is what you see in north India.
This obviously doesn't condone sexual harassment for one second. But if we are open enough to consider the possibility of biological differences in sexuality between the genders, then we may have a better shot at improving the situation. Channeling men's sexual urges into less harmful behaviors (such as handing out phone numbers rather than groping buttocks) will go a long way.
On a related point, it seems the rape rates are also skyrocketing in Indian urban centers. I wonder if this is just an increase in reporting or whether, as women actually transition to lives outside the home, they are now at greater risk of sexual violence. Probably both.